MMP Ep 332: The Hope Again Collective: Rachel's story of miscarriage

MMP Ep 332: The Hope Again Collective: Rachel's story of miscarriage

Jess Gaertner: ​[00:00:00]

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Jess Gaertner: Hi friends!

Rachel Lohman: Welcome to the Modern Mamas Podcast. We

Jess Gaertner: are two modern mamas here to inspire, empowerment,

Rachel Lohman: self love, deep physical and spiritual nourishment, holistic health, open minds, and joy, no matter your journey or perspective. I'm Laura of Radical Roots. I'm a certified CrossFit trainer, certified nutrition consultant, and mama to [00:01:00] Evie Wilder and Indie Bow.

Rachel Lohman: I love outdoor adventure, good food, especially sourdough. And

Jess Gaertner: mindful movement. And I'm Jess of Hold the Space Wellness. I am a level one CrossFit trainer, a licensed and certified athletic trainer with a master's in kinesiology, and Mama Tiberian Camille. I love food, trying new things, creating art, and being a perpetual learner.

Jess Gaertner: Please note that while we're here to provide advice and insights, we aren't medical practitioners, and always recommend that you check with a trusted provider before implementing any changes. Thanks for joining us. We're so happy you're here. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Modern Mamas podcast.

Jess Gaertner: This is just today and we have a guest episode. It's been a while for me personally, but this is a long anticipated, this has been scheduled for a while and actually a really important topic, especially for now when the, when it's going live and I'm just really excited. I will, I do want to say. Before we dive into the [00:02:00] content that just give a little bit of a trigger warning that we will be discussing miscarriage and pregnancy and infant loss.

Jess Gaertner: And so if that is something that you are not ready to hear more about, or, you know, if you're just not ready where you are in your journey to dive into that topic right now. I would just suggest, you know, maybe not listening, go back, listen to an oldie episode to get your modern mamas fix, and then maybe come back to this topic when and if you

Rachel Lohman: are ready, but if you are ready or

Jess Gaertner: maybe you are interested and you've never been through loss before or you're interested in learning more about what that's like and how you can support people in your lives that may have gone through pregnancy loss, we are chatting today with it.

Jess Gaertner: Rachel Lohman. Hi,

Rachel Lohman: Rachel. Hi. Good to be with you, Jess.

Jess Gaertner: It's so good to be with you. And this is such a tough topic. And I'm just so glad that you're willing to chat about it and to share your own experience and to share [00:03:00] through your work the experiences of so many because I feel like in general, this has In the past been somewhat of like a taboo topic, though I do feel like and especially in our community, it's become something that's much more talked about much more, you know, just there's a lot more support.

Jess Gaertner: I feel like probably still not enough, but like we're moving in that direction. And so I'm just so excited to have you on to kind of share some more information about it. And in, Thank you. I want to introduce everyone to you, so I'm going to read your bio. So Rachel Lohman is the author of Miscarried Hope, Journeying with Jesus Through Pregnancy and Infant Loss, and the founder of Hope Again Collective, which is a handmade jewelry line that shares the stories of lost moms and has donated over 10, 000 in practical grief resources to women going through miscarriage or stillbirth, stillbirth.

Jess Gaertner: She is a mother to two living children and one in heaven, and Rachel and her husband

Rachel Lohman: Mark currently

Jess Gaertner: pastor a bilingual church in Southern California. [00:04:00] You've done a lot, and you are in this world supporting other moms, and then you've also had your own experience with loss, and I'm just, I'm just so happy to learn from you.

Jess Gaertner: I don't know if you know anything about me, but I myself have incurred an early pregnancy loss between my first, er, Between my kiddos, I have two kiddos that are with us, but after my first, when we decided to try again for a second, got pregnant, it was exciting, scary, terrifying, like all, all the emotions and then ended up losing that little one shortly after and you know, it's like, I can, I can definitely talk about it now without getting super emotional, but emotional, but it's still always something that really brings up a lot of emotions as I'm sure we'll dive into some of them are Surprisingly actually positive emotions and I know we've got some statistics and stuff talking about what [00:05:00] people might be like what in the world positive emotions, what that could mean, but you know, a lot of it is hard and a lot of it is also around like my well, my role was in this and what I could have done and all these things.

Jess Gaertner: So it's complicated all that to say, which is why I love having people on Bye. Who have had different experiences, who are willing to share their personal stories. And again, I know I don't have to say this as a caveat to our community because, um, they, most of them have been listening for a long time, but.

Jess Gaertner: This is Rachel's story, right? Like the things that you say might not resonate with everyone and there is no one size fits all with like, here's a book on how to handle grief, you know, like here's what you exactly will go through, but this is Rachel's story and she's so generous enough to share it and I just am appreciative of you, friend.

Jess Gaertner: Thank you for being here

Rachel Lohman: again. Thanks for sharing that piece of your own story, Jess, and being vulnerable in that way. And yeah, like you said it. This isn't [00:06:00] talked about that much, this topic of loss, but I feel like it, it should warrant more conversation simply because of the amount of women that it impacts.

Rachel Lohman: If you're listening and loss hasn't, this type of loss hasn't been part of your story, chances are, you know, somebody, whether you're aware of it or not, who has had pregnancy or infant loss playing a part of their story. So I'm just thankful that you're creating space for us to have this conversation and to dive into it.

Rachel Lohman: Yeah, and it's

Jess Gaertner: just so interesting to me. Like, so today we are going to be talking about miscarriage. We are going to be talking about, you know, loss in that way. We're going to be talking about your story, Rachel, as much as you're willing to share how you process through that. And then also just to kind of give everyone tuning in just a little overview, we'll be talking about some practical ways that you can support, you know, loved ones or friends or Anyone in your life that, you know, like Rachel said, has gone through this, you [00:07:00] might be surprised to know that more people than you think probably have experienced this, even if they aren't sharing about it to you directly.

Jess Gaertner: And so we're gonna, we're gonna cover a lot of that. And it's just so interesting because I believe you and I have a mutual friend who has suffered a pregnancy loss. And even as Myself as someone who has suffered a loss in that way,

Rachel Lohman: I still find it difficult

Jess Gaertner: to like comfort console. That's not the right word to support other mamas that I know who are going through this because I feel like everyone processes it so differently and there's no timeline, right?

Jess Gaertner: Like, right. Just because for me, I had a certain timeline or I managed my emotions in a certain way, or I reacted in a certain way. Or I needed certain things doesn't mean that my friend also is going, is processing through [00:08:00] that grief in the same way and needs the same things. Do you know what I mean?

Jess Gaertner: Absolutely. Is that something that you've come across? I'm just diving right in. Totally off script. But like, is that something that you've come across in like your

experiences?

Rachel Lohman: I would say there, there are certain general things that I think most lost moms by and large, and there are always exceptions that they benefit from or desire to have in terms of support from their circle, but I would resonate with the feeling that you shared of even when this is a part of your story are like, I have sat with now 300 lost moms Who have shared their story through my Instagram channel, I still catch myself, if it's somebody that I know, who I hear about has had a loss, being like, Oh, wait, what do I say?

Rachel Lohman: Yeah. And so I think it's good just to name that and normalize that typically comes out of a sensitivity to the other person's pain. You know, we don't want to say the wrong thing. We don't want to add to the hurt. But where I would [00:09:00] encourage you, if you're listening and you felt that way, is to not let that stop you from saying anything.

Rachel Lohman: Because most lost moms, after they experience this, are feeling some degree of isolation and like they're alone in it. Even though we know statistically that's not true, they probably know somebody who shares this experience. But because we live in a culture that while they're talking about this more still isn't talking about it enough It feels really quiet And so push through that feeling of do I just not say anything?

Rachel Lohman: Because I don't want to say the wrong thing The lost mom in your life needs to know that you see her You still love her just the same that you're thinking of her and we'll dive into some practical ways to do that, too But yeah, I just say that off the bat that feeling is normal I'm not quite feeling equipped to know how to respond, but thankfully, it's often something as simple as a hug as a thinking of you text as a just a showing up for that person in a natural [00:10:00] way that can make all the difference.

Jess Gaertner: Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. I'm like already in tears. And it's interesting to me like I no longer I mean, there are moments where I get teary eyed thinking about. That baby. And you know, but it's no longer this like visceral reaction for me. But when I think about the people that I know or even hearing a stranger story, it's like I immediately just respond like internally with just like it's a visceral response still because you know, it brings you back there.

Jess Gaertner: But then you're thinking of this person and you understand to a certain degree that like pain is just so raw. Yeah. Yeah, so it is. It's just isolating. I say you would kind of nailed it. Hit the nail on the head with that one. But

Rachel Lohman: I would love to hear if you are, you know,

Jess Gaertner: comfortable sharing more about your story before we [00:11:00] really dive into the topic, just your story, how you kind of process through your own experience and what that was like and kind of how it led you to what you're doing

Rachel Lohman: now.

Rachel Lohman: Totally. Yeah, I'm more than willing to share. I think we have so many cultural expectations, most of them unspoken around motherhood and what it's going to look like for our stories. And so I didn't even realize I was carrying a lot of that expectations. Like, okay, when I'm ready. You know, I can control the timing.

Rachel Lohman: It's going to happen naturally. It's not going to have a lot of pain involved. It's going to be this, like, blissful season of life. And don't get me wrong, like, it is those things. It is blissful in its moments. Um, and for some moms, it can't be all of those factors. Like, it can happen on their timing. It can happen easily.

Rachel Lohman: And it can happen relatively without a lot of pain. That was not my experience. And [00:12:00] my start to motherhood was marked with loss, it was marked with death, and that was so far off my radar, that it really, it just pulled the rug out from underneath me, and yeah, it made me, I felt a lot of things. I was questioning things I had never questioned before.

Rachel Lohman: I was feeling things about like, you know, do I have this trust in my body that it's going to be able to do what I think it was made to do? Like, what does this mean for my future pregnancies? What does this mean for my dreams of having a family and being a mom? And I even felt a little bit of guilt for the fact that motherhood wasn't like my end all be all.

Rachel Lohman: You know, I remember growing up with other friends who Like their biggest dream in life was I can't wait till I'm able to have kids and I love that for them I never felt like yeah, that's [00:13:00] it, you know, like that's going to be everything I wanted to do that and you know, I was equally as excited about some career dreams and Either one of those is fine.

Rachel Lohman: There are many more variations of that, right? But I then felt some guilt of like, did I not want this enough? And so it is really interesting how walking through a deep loss like this kind of unveils all of these expectations that you didn't even know that you were living with. All of these other feelings.

Rachel Lohman: It's never just about the loss itself. It's what it compounds in our story that's already been there for years. So That was kind of my experience and in terms of how what spiraled out of me afterwards. So yeah, it was how our parenthood journey started. It was how my motherhood journey started and as weird as it is to say now, I feel like it was a gift.

Rachel Lohman: I would not appreciate the gift of motherhood, the miracle of life and [00:14:00] this season that I'm in where I get to parent living children. With the appreciation that I have now had I not experienced it being taken away from me first So I know that can be a weird thing to say and you know If somebody would have told me that in my first year post loss, I would have been like, okay.

Rachel Lohman: Well I'm glad that works for you, but I just don't even see that how that's possible But with time that has just become more and more evident and that's something Never would have wanted my story to motherhood to start this way, but I'm actually thankful now that it did

Jess Gaertner: Wow. Thank you so much again I mean you said it to me, but thank you for being vulnerable as well.

Jess Gaertner: And it's just it's we're all uniquely individual and we all process and like you said in hindsight like things and feelings change and perspectives change for sure because we're living our experience like We're not the same person that we were five years ago, 10 years [00:15:00] ago, a month ago, you know, like there's, and like you said, perspective comes oftentimes with time and those, you know, lived experiences and I want to hear a little bit too about Hope Again Collective because you had your own personal experience and then you Kind of created this line and a way to support other women with it.

Jess Gaertner: How, like, how did that

Rachel Lohman: come about? In a way that I never would have expected. I was about halfway through my pregnancy with my daughter, Eden, and if you've been pregnant after experiencing loss, you know that it comes with a whole slew of other emotions. Yeah. Things like a lot of anxiety and fear and yeah, it's just challenging.

Rachel Lohman: It still has its celebratory moments, obviously, but it is complex. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I found myself wanting something creative to have an outlet, something that I could do kind of for fun. I was telling [00:16:00] somebody else, like I had to Google affordable hobbies. That I can do in my home. And I'm like, man, is that just a sign of my age?

Rachel Lohman: Is that what happens when you're like a mom and you're thirties? Like you don't have hobbies anymore. You have to go seek them out and invest in them. So that's what I did. These are the, the very flashy beginnings to my business. So I ordered, I saw this thing like, Oh, clay earrings are really popular.

Rachel Lohman: This is back in like end of 2019. And I thought, well, that looks like fun. Something I could do at home. I used to make jewelry just for fun in my parents basement. I had a little craft room just growing up. And so it kind of felt like yeah a full circle moment tapping into this creative part of myself that I lost with the busy busyness of life So I ordered this cheap clay kit from Amazon.

Rachel Lohman: Don't worry. That's not what I used today. I've tested way better products over the years.

Jess Gaertner: We're all gonna start somewhere. Yeah.

Rachel Lohman: Just having fun, making earrings. [00:17:00] And I remember saying to myself one day, or maybe I said it out loud to my husband, like, finally I have something that can just be fun without pressure because I'm never gonna sell these.

Rachel Lohman: I've decided, like, I'm not selling these.

Jess Gaertner: Famous last

Rachel Lohman: words. Exactly. I end up like posting something that I made because I thought they were cute one day and a friend from high school reaches out and she's like, hey, can I buy those? And I was like, me? Really? Like, you want to buy this? I made it on my kitchen table.

Rachel Lohman: Sure. And that's where it all changed. Then months went by, I'm having fun with this, have my daughter Eden, you know, I'm starting to get a little bit out of the postpartum fog and thinking, okay, writing a book on this topic has been on my heart for years. Maybe it's time I give up the fun thing and now the little bit of free time I have into writing and do the hard thing.

Rachel Lohman: And I just sat on that for a while. And in my quiet time in [00:18:00] journaling and I just felt like maybe it can be both. And what ended up coming out of this was this idea to name the earrings that I make after lost moms, after women who have gone through a miscarriage or stillbirth or an infant loss. And so I just started reaching out to women that I knew that had had loss.

Rachel Lohman: I said, Hey, I'm going to try this thing. Would you be willing to send me, like, a couple paragraphs of your story, how it's, how your loss has changed you, what happened, how it informed your motherhood? So I started kind of with this trial group and I launched my first collection. I think it had like 14 earrings in it.

Rachel Lohman: They were each after named after these 14 women that I collected stories from. I shared their stories on my social media page and then I made a space online where any mom in the world who can submit her story. So that [00:19:00] was how Hoping and Collective started. Wow. And the response to it. Was surprising, but also not surprising in the way that, yeah, it gained a lot of traction and I've had 300 moms now share their stories with me, which is incredible, but it's not surprising in the way that it confirms the fact that we don't have enough safe spaces in our society for lost moms to be talking about this chapter of their story, and so that's why I think the response was just like, Well, yeah, this is a need that we have.

Rachel Lohman: We want this. The lost swamp community wants a place like this. And that for a lot of us... This was true of my story. You know, I lost my baby at seven and a half weeks. So it was on the earlier side. I had nothing physical, like a memento to remember my baby by. And so many women resonate with that, but feel like in the earring that's designed after them, they have something tangible to [00:20:00] represent their baby's life, their story.

Rachel Lohman: And it's been so cool to see their family and friends buy the earring, wear the earring. As kind of a sign of support of, yeah, we see you, we see your story, and we see your baby. Hello friends, Laura here popping in real quick to rave about my current favorite product from Paleo Valley. Have you tried their whey protein yet?

Rachel Lohman: Not only are they absolutely delicious, And deeply nourishing, but bonus points because they also have colostrum, which heals, repairs, and gives our bodies the extra boost we need for motherhood, work, working out, all the things. I add it to my coffee every morning and it fuels my early morning work, my transition into motherhood whenever the kids wake up, and then my training.

Rachel Lohman: Cannot recommend it enough. Give it a try. Creamy, delicious. flavor packed and none of the junk you'll find in typical protein powders. We also add it to pancakes and oatmeal and I look forward to smoothies this summer. Don't wait, go grab yours and save [00:21:00] 15 percent with paleovalley. com forward slash modern mamas.

Rachel Lohman: Enjoy! Oh my gosh,

Jess Gaertner: that is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that and for buying that kid on Amazon and getting this party Air quotes party started. Yes That's such a beautiful You know, I never really thought about it that way because I also lost my baby early, about eight weeks as well, and there's this sort of, almost like, for me, at least personally, it's like, well, it was so early.

Jess Gaertner: Like, it's not the same, like, and there are, sure, there's differences across the spectrum on, you know, how that experience goes, but, you know, I always kind of have guilt because when I talk with someone who is further along in their pregnancy when they suffered their loss and it's like, well, you know, that comparative suffering that we all [00:22:00] do,

Rachel Lohman: we love to do

Jess Gaertner: it.

Jess Gaertner: And that's where it's like. Well, I, you know, I don't know, anyways, I, I'm going on a tangent because some of the things that you said kind of triggered those emotions and remembrances of things that, you know, I'm experiencing too, but I, you're right, because it was so early, there's no, there's nothing like physical to remember that pregnancy by, and I love the idea of having that tangible item, the earrings or, you know, um, Whatever it is, just to kind of as remembrance, you know, it's like, that's really special, that's really special.

Jess Gaertner: Man, I, yeah, I keep thinking about, I, I don't know if you know that we have a mutual friend or not. I think, because, yes, anyways, she is a lost mom, and I think she also had some earrings named for her as well. Huh. So, she, like, kind of introduced me to you before we even connected on, podcast. [00:23:00] Yeah. Yeah. I just, I've been love, I've loved watching that evolve and love, love learning more about what you're doing at Hope Again Collective, so.

Rachel Lohman: Thanks, Jess. Yeah. It's been, yeah, it's nothing I ever would have imagined would have come out of, yeah, making those earrings on my kitchen table. But it's been such a meaningful space and I can genuinely say like, It is my full time job pretty much most weeks, but it's, it doesn't feel like work, well, unless I'm filing my taxes, that feels like work and a half, time and a half, right there.

Rachel Lohman: But it's so life giving to be doing something meaningful and coming alongside women who, for a lot of them, this is the first time that they share their story publicly. And so it's a big step. And I remember what that was like for me. So yeah, I just feel really grateful to be in this space. Yeah,

Jess Gaertner: well, and kind of transitioning into some more of what you've learned, because I know you've been gathering a lot of stories and a lot of information, and you've shared [00:24:00] personally kind of how your loss impacted your own motherhood perspectives, but what are you seeing from a more broad perspective and that the research that you've been gathering from.

Jess Gaertner: Lost moms. Like you have your I'm not sure if you're asking questions when you're kind of getting those story submissions. Like, how are you getting that research and kind of what are some of the biggest things that you want to share from what you're

Rachel Lohman: learning? Yeah, I have two different ways I've collected my research.

Rachel Lohman: So one is kind of on a rolling basis, and that's what I collect women's stories. I ask a few different questions. The question I end with is, how has your loss impacted you as a woman? And in that, I see some very beautiful Responses. And it is something that we, I think we tend to shy away from talking about, like, because we can feel like, [00:25:00] oh, if I say anything positive has come about this horrible thing in my life, it feels like I'm downplaying the loss or I'm thankful for the loss happening.

Rachel Lohman: Just as I said earlier, I'm never going to be thankful that my baby died. I'm never going to be thankful for that. I'm going to be thankful for what's come of it. What's come of me walking through that experience. And so to have to see women enter that perspective and be like, yeah, my empathy has changed incredibly.

Rachel Lohman: Like, I can't believe some of the things I used to say to people now I understand I am way more open and honest with my emotions, conflict, whatever it is. I really see each day as a gift and as a miracle because now I know, you know, my baby's life was taken away just out of nowhere. And now I realize, like, yeah, life really is as fragile as people talk about.

Rachel Lohman: They, so I see some themes come through in that, which is, yeah, it is always really eye opening to [00:26:00] see. In terms of the research that I did for my book, when I was in my research phase before I started writing, I surveyed 400 lost moms anonymously online with a variety of questions. And here are some of the main takeaways.

Rachel Lohman: And if you're listening and loss hasn't been a part of your story, you know, these are things that can really help clue you into what the experience is like for your loved one. So 84 percent of lost moms feel shame about their loss. They feel shame over it. And that's really a heartbreaking reality. And I think one of the best ways that we can combat that shame.

Rachel Lohman: Is to give women opportunity to talk about their experience without trying to, to cut them off or, you know, help them look for a silver lining in their pain or respond with any of those cliche [00:27:00] phrases like. Well, you can try again or at least, you know, anything that starts with at least, you know, yeah, never a great idea.

Rachel Lohman: Probably. Yeah. Yeah. But letting women know, like, Hey, I'm not afraid of that piece of your story. I'm not afraid of it. You can share that with me. That is so helpful in lifting that layer of shame. 76 percent of women blame themselves for their loss to some degree. Again, another really heartbreaking reality.

Rachel Lohman: And I, I don't know what your experience was like dress, but I remember her. months of kind of feeling that way. A lot of us don't get medical answers as to why our babies died. And so one of the ways that our brains from a neuroscience perspective, try to store and make sense of trauma is to fill in the missing pieces and we'll resort to a familiar storyline.

Rachel Lohman: So if you've been telling yourself for years, like, Oh, good things get taken away from me because [00:28:00] I'm not good enough, or You know, maybe I messed up. Maybe I didn't want this pad enough. Maybe somebody, when I was a kid, spoke this horrible thing over me and I believed that, whatever it is, that often shapes how we blame ourselves.

Rachel Lohman: A couple other ones, over two thirds of women that I surveyed said that their loss has negatively impacted their relationship with their body. And, yeah, that's one of the reasons why pregnancy and infant loss is so complex, I think. The loss, the trauma, happens within your own body. And often for the first time, you experience this distrust.

Rachel Lohman: Like, wait, you know, you're kind of confused. Did my body fail or how do I trust it to carry future pregnancies to term? It just puts you in this whole new framework of [00:29:00] feeling like upset towards your body, negative, angry, whatever it is. And that is a hard place to live in. One thing that surprised me in the research.

Rachel Lohman: Was that over half of the women said that their relationship with their partner is actually stronger after going through loss together. Wow. Yeah. There's a lot of, again, complexity in how, especially men and women, process loss differently. And this was true with me and my own husband. Like, he wasn't talking about it.

Rachel Lohman: He never seemed sad. And I just felt like I was having the opposite experience, and I know for a lot of people that can be a point of tension and a hard spot in their grief, but yeah, over half of the women said that once they, they got a little bit removed from their loss, some time had gone by that they felt their relationship with their partner was stronger.

Rachel Lohman: Wow.

Jess Gaertner: That particular statistic is, I'm gonna have to like [00:30:00] sit with that a while and I mean, do you have any ideas of like why you think, or is there any light shed on that particular statistic in terms of like, why? Because yeah, like you said, it can be a bone of contention, right, when people are processing it differently, and you know, from my perspective, it was like, it was so early, we had just found out And then it was like a week later, essentially, I'm experiencing this loss and it's happening to me physically, you know, my partner is obviously supporting me, my husband, but like, you know, he's, it's just a wildly different experience at that point for him.

Jess Gaertner: And so I think there, you know, luckily for us, there was never a lot of like, like me being like, why aren't you know, X, Y, Z, but I can see how that can [00:31:00] definitely could be an issue. So why do you think that do people just turn towards each other in times of grief versus apart for the most part? Or like, what do you have any insight

Rachel Lohman: into that?

Rachel Lohman: Yeah, when the partner is displaying some degree of empathy, you know, there's always the exceptions where I have heard women reach out to me and say like, Hey, we weren't like the way that, that we handled loss together was the final straw that broke our already weak marriage. So there are always exceptions, but I think by and large, you know, for a lot of couples, I mean, if you just look at the timeline, like people are getting, if they're getting married, they're getting married later and in life.

Rachel Lohman: So usually if they want to have kids, they are going to start trying to have kids within the first few years of their, of their relationship. So it can often be the case, and I, it was for us, for me, my husband, that [00:32:00] Walking through that loss was really our first big hurdle together as a couple. And so, you know, as long as there's open communication and it's handled in a healthy way, usually the things that we go through with those closest to us do end up...

Rachel Lohman: building a type of strength that we didn't have before you have to walk through something that's really hard. And so that's one of the things that I've seen emerge is like, yeah, like, you know, we thought we had a good relationship. We thought it was solid. Then we walked through this together and it was like, okay, wow.

Rachel Lohman: You know, if we can, if we can make it through, learn how to support each other after losing a child and a dream and all those other secondary losses that come with it. It's kind of this new strength that's forged that is like, okay, you know, we, we can walk through other stuff together. Yeah.

Jess Gaertner: Wow. Okay. I'm not, I'm going to be like mulling that over.

Jess Gaertner: I tend to be like one of those people that like just takes an idea and like thinks about it like [00:33:00] constantly nonstop. So that's going to be on my brain for a while. Just, you know, thinking about other people and their challenges and how something like this can really. Strengthen. And again, like I can understand it and I see it in my own life, how it, you know, has strengthened us because you're right.

Jess Gaertner: It's like I think about our personal story and we've had, we had challenges before then, but never like never to that degree, at least in my opinion. And I do think we came out a lot stronger and because we still continue to face challenges, Right. Not necessarily loss in that way, but like, you know, very challenging situations in our life.

Jess Gaertner: We've been married for 12 years and, you know, losing parents and, you know, a lot of things ahead. I feel like it has strengthened that muscle of like resiliency and communication and how we can communicate in the future. I think, you know, if we're talking positives here, I think for us, [00:34:00] at least, that is definitely something that was a positive

Rachel Lohman: result of our loss together.

Rachel Lohman: Yeah. And this is, this is something that is a shared loss. So when we look at the other things, like you just mentioned a couple of them, like the loss of a parent, the loss of a job, obviously that's going to hurt your partner if it wasn't their direct, you know, job that was lost or their parent. They're going to feel that, but they're mostly feeling it through York.

Rachel Lohman: But this is something where it's like, no, we created this child together. Like this was both of our child. Now I know that women bear the majority of the experience when it comes to the loss. And actually my husband wrote a chapter of my book talking about this exact experience. Like, yeah, there's been nothing else that we've gone through where he compares it to a marathon, which I know sounds really weird, but I run marathons.

Rachel Lohman: He, when the first one that he came to. You know, we talk about we were both at the exact [00:35:00] same event, showed up at the same time. The weather was the same for both of us. We were there. We took in all the same factors together, but Mark had a severely different experience cheering for me on the sidelines than I did trudging for 26.

Rachel Lohman: 2 miles. We had, it couldn't be more opposite. My body showed the physical signs of that day. My mentally, like it wore on me, it taxed me. And he had a pretty much an opposite experience, and I think it was positive, like, this is great. You should run. He's like, Yeah, okay, let's go eat. I'm like, Yeah, let's talk about food, please.

Rachel Lohman: But yeah, he kind of uses that as a working metaphor just to say, Hey, we walk through a lot of things in life where. You can share an experience with your partner, but also have a very different outtake of it or just processing. So, yeah, there's not a lot of talk on that usually, but yeah, I think it's good and healthy to go there.

Rachel Lohman: So, yeah. [00:36:00]

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Jess Gaertner: Now let's dive back into our episode. Okay, so you [00:38:00] mentioned that 76% of women blame themselves to some degree uhhuh for their loss, and I can definitely raise my hand and say that I was one of those people. It was definitely me afterwards that was like, what did I do? Because I was. You know, I thought, you know, I'm eating healthy.

Jess Gaertner: I'm working out. I have I checked all these boxes And then it prompted, you know, this kind of like deep dive into like, was it my hairspray? Was it my toothpaste? Was it because I worked out too hard or not enough? And like, you know, all this stuff, like, what did I do? And so dealing with that blame or that shame, guilt, all of it, of myself, I would, I can't say that I now know that,

Rachel Lohman: you know, I've

Jess Gaertner: stepped out of that, but at the same time, it feels very real and raw.

Jess Gaertner: Like you said, your brain is looking for a reason, like the pieces of the puzzle and so creating answers for that. How can we, as family, like [00:39:00] family and friends help to support someone specifically with that, with those feelings as they're going

Rachel Lohman: through that? Yeah, I think it can be. As simple as giving them a reminder, even if it might feel a little weird to say this, like I say this to people though, I just said this to a girl the other, the week, I didn't know if she was dealing with self blame, but my suspicion was, you know, probably statistically she is, so I just say at the end of our text, hey, and I just want to remind you that this isn't your fault, I've told other women who really like confess to me that they're struggling with that, I'm like, hey, put this on a post it note, put it on your mirror, put it in your car, a place you can see it, And you just have to tell your brain, you have to proactively work against those thoughts that are going to want to blame you because you're searching for a reason why we hate living in the tension of the gray, we like black and whites and absolutes and things that, you know, we can make sense of [00:40:00]that's often just not the case.

Rachel Lohman: So to remind your loved one, Hey, and I just want you to know this didn't happen because if you got to blame for this, I don't see you any differently. You're a great mom. You're gonna be a great mom. You know, I don't, I love you just the same. Simple reminders like that can be very powerful.

Jess Gaertner: Oh, man, it's, it is, it's tough.

Jess Gaertner: And, you know, again, like having gone through it and watching people that I love and care about go through it. It's like, you're right. It's just hearing someone who sees you and knows you. And even if they don't know you that well, but you're, you know, sharing your story for the first time, say, like, those words are really powerful, like, this is not your fault, it's like, and sometimes you have to hear that over and over, like you said, you see that posted note every single day until it starts to feel real, until your [00:41:00] brain is like, okay, I accept this, you know, but yeah, that is that it's incredibly powerful.

Jess Gaertner: You've also, so we've also kind of talked about, This idea of, like, there's a gift in this pain and this loss is specifically, like, as you go on in your motherhood journey, what does that mean to you, if you don't mind sharing?

Rachel Lohman: Oh, yeah, not at all. As I sat with my therapist early on after my loss, she said these words, and they didn't make sense to me at the time.

Rachel Lohman: She said, sometimes I actually feel badly for my friends who have just had a piece of cake walk with motherhood and they haven't experienced Hardship on the journey or a loss. And I remember thinking, Oh, why would you feel badly for them? Like, that's what I want. Yeah. Yeah. And she said, because they miss out on the gift of this new perspective on motherhood.

Rachel Lohman: And it comes [00:42:00] out in the way that they talk about their kids, the way that they handle the frustrations and the difficult stages and the parenting moments where, you know, you don't know what to do. She said it just changes the, the perspective that they see their kids with. And she said, I would have been in their exact same shoes, which is true for me too.

Rachel Lohman: Like I would have. You know, been quick to blow a fuse and get like, I would have handled everything differently than I do now and I still do get frustrated, obviously, and lose my cool and all that. I'm not saying like, Oh, this gives me like a get out of jail free card and I'm this like Mahatma Gandhi parent now or something.

Rachel Lohman: But at the end of the day, my perspective has been so shaped and formed by the gift, seeing really motherhood as such a gift. It's fragile. So valuable. It's [00:43:00] precious. It's a miracle. It's something that I have very little control over and I want to hold it in my hands with as much care and nurturing and love as I can because it is so fragile and I just would not have had that with without seeing how the gift can be shaken or potentially what I thought it's.

Rachel Lohman: Maybe this will never be a part of my story. So yeah, it has shaped everything for me. Yeah, I

Jess Gaertner: think that's so interesting too. And I think the, the quote unquote gifts that everyone experiences from, from something like this, a loss. Is sometimes I feel like as you were talking, I was like, okay, how does that resonate with me?

Jess Gaertner: Is that true? Does it feel true? And I feel like the gift might be different for everyone. For me, it was definitely this idea of after my first pregnancy. And I mean, there was a lot of [00:44:00] things along the way that that was teaching me about control. So my first pregnancy was great. My delivery was so, so difficult and postpartum was really difficult.

Jess Gaertner: And so I kind of started to learn this idea of like, you don't have control, like, Jess, you don't have control over what you think you have control over. So that was, there was a little bit of, I had already started learning that, and then... When I experienced my loss, it was like even more this and I continue, I feel like this is one of the lessons I'm like here to learn, like for the long term, like it keeps coming up over and over again, is that you are like, you don't have as much control as you think you have, if any at all.

Jess Gaertner: I mean, really, you control yourself to a certain degree, but What you say and what you do, but like, yeah, this is one of those instances that really for me, like shook that foundation of like, Oh, I've got it all figured out. I've done research. I've [00:45:00] done everything right. So therefore I will have like my 2.

Jess Gaertner: 5 children and it will go like this and we will be, you know, XYZ. It's whatever, insert whatever idea you think that you have for your life. And so for me, that gift was again, teaching me that, like, I don't have control. And actually that's, you know, maybe not in this instance, it didn't feel like a good thing, but when you look at it and apply it broadly to my life, like it is a good thing that I don't have control over everyone and everything, you know, it's a lot of work.

Rachel Lohman: It is. It's a lot of

Jess Gaertner: responsibility. It's a lot of responsibility. Much control if we really knew,

Rachel Lohman: but yeah, motherhood is like, I feel like an ongoing exposure to the fact that we control

Jess Gaertner: so little in life, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I do feel like maybe I wouldn't have learned that as quickly or, you know, as well.

Jess Gaertner: As I feel like I [00:46:00] have today. I mean, of course, like you said, it's like, it's not saying that because we've experienced this now we're the perfect mom and we just, every day we're like, just so grateful. And, and a lot of the time I am, but that's definitely not always the case because it, you know, it's real life, but I do think it gives you that unique perspective sometimes.

Jess Gaertner: So thank you for sharing about that too, in relation to your own experience. So I kind of want to transition as we wrap up everything. To some practical ways that, you know, both short term and long term, you can kind of take the reins on this and share what you think is most important, but how can we support parents going through loss?

Jess Gaertner: You know, regardless of timeline or anything like that, what are some practical ways that we can help them as

Rachel Lohman: their loved ones? If you hear of a loved one who's recently lost her baby, some things that you can do that I've found to [00:47:00] be really helpful, send her a text to let her know you're thinking of her.

Rachel Lohman: Acknowledging the loss and send it to, you know, her husband or partner too. Like acknowledging the loss is so helpful because. It often feels like you're carrying this really heavy thing, but like, nobody else is addressing it or acknowledging it because they're tiptoeing around you and they're afraid to upset you.

Rachel Lohman: Well, you're already, they're already feeling the feelings and, and the sadness and all of that stuff. When somebody else is like, Oh, I see you. It's just like your shoulders relax and you're like, oh, this feels safe. So acknowledge the loss, send a card, send flowers, whatever it is. If they have living children, offer, hey, is there a time next week that I could come over and babysit so that you can have a few hours to do whatever you need?

Rachel Lohman: Whether, she'll figure out something to do at that time, trust me. Another way is say, hey, I'm going to Target, [00:48:00] I'm going to Starbucks, what can I get you? That also applies that same phrasing to dropping dinners off. Hey, what day works next week for me to leave dinner on your doorstep? We tend to want to phrase these unintentionally, like in kind of open ended ways, like, Hey, is there anything you'd like this week?

Rachel Lohman: Or Let me know if I can do anything to help or if you guys need meals. Again, that puts the responsibility back on the griever to initiate these things when they're already dealing with so much and then they're like, Oh, I don't want to have to like burden that person or take them up on it. But I found that if you can ask in a direct way, Hey, I'm going to target right now.

Rachel Lohman: What can I grab you? Hey, what day works next week for me to leave dinner on your doorstep? Oftentimes that that just helps them receive a little bit more. And I can guarantee that the lost mom's going to need those extra areas of help [00:49:00] because the world doesn't stop turning once you've experienced loss.

Rachel Lohman: There's still bills to pay and groceries to buy and a house to clean and children to take care of and a job to go back to. After what most of us get if we get anything is three days of bereavement leave. So that would be short term. It's also to note that doesn't stop after like two weeks after the loss.

Rachel Lohman: That's when the dust kind of settles when the flowers die. And then it's like this huge period of silence where usually they start to process grief for the first time and it becomes their reality. So I like to encourage people and I like to do this myself as much as I can. A month out, two months out, three months out, Hey, I'm still thinking of you, thinking of your baby today.

Rachel Lohman: Is there any way I can help this week? What can I do this week to keep showing up in terms of long term ways to support somebody you love who's gone through pregnancy and infant loss? One really [00:50:00] helpful way, this is probably the most helpful way that I hear time and time again from fellow loss moms, is if you can reach out and remember them on the day that they lost their baby.

Rachel Lohman: Typically, they'll consider that their baby's birthday. Maybe it could be her due date. You can always ask. And it's not weird to ask to say, Hey, are there any special dates that I can remember your baby with? Put it in your calendar, set a reminder a week beforehand to send her a text. Drop off a little treat on her doorstep to drop a card in the mail if you don't live close by and it can be as Simple as I'm thinking of you and I'm remembering your baby's life today It doesn't have to be grand and poetic.

Rachel Lohman: It can be very simple, but it's a way to say Hey, I see you and I haven't forgotten your child that just it means the absolute world I've had years where nobody has reached out On May 28th, which is [00:51:00] the day that we lost our baby, I've had other years where people send me really sweet texts and I'm like, wow, the fact that you took time out of your day to remember me and to remember my baby, it just makes you feel like you're not alone and you're not forgotten.

Rachel Lohman: The first Mother's Day, the first Father's Day for parents who have gone through a loss. You know, send them a card. Acknowledge them on that day, just like you would anybody else. Christmas, or on the holidays, it's great to get. There are so many customizable, cute things you can get. I like to get ornaments, like a little angel ornament made from Etsy.

Rachel Lohman: That says remembering your baby or something like that and send it to the family. So there are various ways, you know, in October every year is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month. And that also is a natural time for you to reach out and say, Hey, I'm taking a view of your baby this month. So those are some simple things.

Rachel Lohman: Again, it doesn't have to be grand, doesn't have to be big. It just has to be. Something natural. It's like, Hey, I see you, but I haven't forgot. [00:52:00] Yeah, I love that.

Jess Gaertner: Thank you so much. That's so helpful, man. This has been such, I hope this is an impactful episode for a lot of people, especially, I mean, for both mamas that have experienced loss and then, you know, people who are tuning in that haven't personally experienced it, but do know someone.

Jess Gaertner: I hope that you kind of tuck it into your back pocket. You know, for a time if you need it for yourself or for someone else and that it's serves you down the road. We're just grateful that you joined us today, Rachel. Is there any parting words as we kind of wrap up that you would like maybe like

Rachel Lohman: to leave us with?

Rachel Lohman: Sure. Yeah, I would just say. That if you're listening and, and you feel hopeless about your motherhood journey or what the future may hold for your motherhood experience because loss is what you're living in right now, um, that I've been there, that so many of us have been there. You're not alone in that feeling [00:53:00] and that oftentimes, you know, hope can show up in a surprising way.

Rachel Lohman: And if, if you're really struggling, you need somebody to talk to, you know, reach out to a therapist, reach out to somebody in your life who has walked. This familiar journey of pregnancy and infant loss, but I'm living proof that Even if the story starts with loss, it doesn't end that way. Oh So

Jess Gaertner: beautiful Thank you so much for sharing and it was just a delight to get to know you a little bit better and I would love to kind of give everyone some direction on if they Resonated with your story or just want to further explore some of the things that you have put out into the world Where can we find you?

Jess Gaertner: Where can we find your book? Where can we find hope again, collective, tell us all the things. Sure, yeah.

Rachel Lohman: I'd love to connect with you guys if you had to. Rachel loman.com. That's L-O-H-M-A-N. There I have hope again, [00:54:00] collective linked as well as my book. You could also just head straight to hope. Again, collective.com if you'd like to get some earrings and wear some hope on your ears,

Rachel Lohman: And yeah, I'd love to to chat with you on Instagram. I'm at Hope again, collective. And that's where you can find me.

Jess Gaertner: Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you again and again for coming on and sharing your story and diving deeper into this like much needed topic. We really appreciate

Rachel Lohman: you, Rachel. Thanks, Jess.

Rachel Lohman: Thanks for the space to have this conversation. Absolutely. We'll talk soon. Okay. Bye.

Rachel Lohman: Thanks for listening to our podcast. See you next time. Bye.[00:55:00]