MMP Ep 348: Lisa Hendrickson-Jack on Optimizing Your Fertility

0:00

Hey friends, can't wait till Wednesdays to get your modern Mama's fixed?

Join us on Patreon.

You can choose your tier and when you subscribe you'll get bonus content, early access to retreat, first peeks at new swag, plus shout outs, and even real time monthly virtual hangs with us.

Visit patreon.com/modern Mama's podcast, check it out and support the podcast.

0:18

It truly means the world to us.

We are so grateful for you and for this community.

0:37

Hi friends, welcome to the Modern Mamas podcast.

We are two modern Mamas here to inspire empowerment, self love, deep physical and spiritual nourishment, holistic health, open minds and joy no matter your journey or perspective.

I'm Laura of Radical Roots.

I'm a certified CrossFit trainer, certified nutrition consultant, and Mama to Edie Wilder and Indie Bow.

0:56

I love outdoor adventure, good food, especially sour and mindful movement.

And I'm Jess of Hold the Space Wellness.

I am a Level One CrossFit Trainer, a licensed and certified athletic trainer with the masters in Kinesiology and Mama to Baron Camille.

I love food, trying new things, creating art, and being a perpetual learner.

1:14

Please note that while we're here to provide advice and insights, we aren't medical practitioners and always recommend that you check with a trusted provider before implementing any changes.

Thanks for joining us.

We're so happy you're here.

Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of the Modern Mamas podcast.

1:30

I am so excited to have a repeat guest.

For those of you who've been here for the long haul, you might remember when we had Lisa Hendrickson Jack on all the way back.

I just looked it up.

Episode 86, which was in 2018, which blows my mind.

1:46

Evie was itty bitty indie, was just a sparkle in my eye and we are here now jumping back on new book out partnering with Lily Nichols who's also been on the podcast.

So many exciting things to talk about when it comes to fertility and vitality and health and Wellness and and life and motherhood.

2:05

We both had babies since we last spoke so I am super excited.

Without further ado, to introduce my friend and brilliant author Mama Lisa Hendrickson Jack.

She is a certified Fertility awareness educator and holistic reproductive health practitioner who teaches women to chart their menstrual cycles for natural birth control, conception and monitoring overall health.

2:28

She's the author of three best selling books, The 5th Vital Sign, The Fertility Awareness, Mastery, Charting Workbook, and her most recent book, Real Food for Fertility, which she co-authored with Lily Nichols, who's an RDN.

Lisa works tirelessly to debunk the myth that regular ovulation is only important when you want children by recognizing the menstrual cycle as a vital sign.

2:48

Drawing heavily from the current scientific literature, Lisa presents an evidence based approach to help women connect to their 5th vital sign by uncovering the connection between the menstrual cycle, fertility and overall health with well over 4,000,000 downloads.

Her podcast, Fertility Friday is the number one source for information about fertility awareness and menstrual cycle health, and we will link to all that in the show notes.

3:09

But Lisa, thank you so much for coming on today.

I'm really excited to dive in.

Thank you so much for having me.

Such a treat.

So we are recording, it's it is now January something.

We're in the second week.

I've lost track of the days, I think, but it's the 11th.

That's right.

So as we head into this new year, I love to, I just, I love the whole idea and our listeners know of setting intentions for the new year.

3:31

I'm not like AI, don't think that the dead of winter is the best time to set goals, very specific kinds of things for the whole entire year ahead.

But I'm big in intention setting and I'm curious to know how do you feel about that?

And if so, if that's something you're also on board with, have you set an intention for the year ahead and or do you have something you're really looking forward to in 2024?

3:52

How are you feeling going into the year?

Well, I mean all the fields for sure as I go into this particular year like I do most years, I do have goals and set intentions.

I think anyone who is a business owner, you know, entrepreneurial, certainly that's how you, you keep moving forward.

4:10

So the new book is definitely part of that.

That has been, you could say, a passion project that Lily and I've been working on for at least 2 1/2 years.

So we're really excited to finally get it out and just to kind of have the season that happens after because there's a lot of things that go into it.

4:30

So for example, there's a lot of things that we've been kind of putting a little bit to the side, you know, that we can now focus on.

So I'm looking forward to that.

I'm looking forward to running a next round of my practitioner program and being able to focus on a few different projects within the business but within from the family standpoint.

4:49

As you can imagine writing a book and then editing and formatting all these things take up a lot of time.

So I'm also, we haven't planned a specific date or anything.

But once the dust settles, you know, we are planning to do some sort of family vacation and and just kind of switch up the energy this year to more, you know, family time because we just have more time freed up now that this project is finally complete.

5:12

I love it.

I feel like it's it's all the hard work, head down and then you get to kind of celebrate and I don't know if you guys are going to do some sort of like tour or but it's it becomes more of the fun part where you get to come on podcast and talk about this passion project and this like work baby that you've now kind of birthed into the world.

5:28

I think that's so cool.

Right on.

OK, cool.

And how's it been working with Lily?

I haven't seen her in ages.

She used to live up here where I live now and the timing was just four.

Where she moved.

She left right when we moved up here.

But Kindred Souls and I I imagine that you guys are both just so brilliant.

So I can only imagine the depth and breadth of this book.

5:45

Well, Lily.

And I are are just great friends so she's a dear friend of mine and obviously we're also colleagues and and we our work has so much overlap.

So you know this book came about like like a lot of things come about you're kind of talking and you know the speaker an idea and both Lily and I are kind of like just doers.

6:04

So then the idea doesn't stay an idea for very long.

We both just decide to jump on it.

So it really what I always say to Lily that she is the only person on Earth that I could write a book with.

We're very well matched in terms of our, you know, that's like just obsession is the best word for.

6:22

Love and search, right?

And I mean, we had so many citations in this book that we had to make the call to include them as a separate PDF download because there's like over 2400.

So, so that just like what what are we going to do with 200 pages that they do, right.

6:38

But that just speaks to how well matched we are.

And so, I mean, the project with two authors, it does take a little longer because there's always two people that have to kind of read through everything and two people that have to make decisions about everything.

But at the same time, it's like iron sharpens iron.

6:55

So it was just incredible for us to both be able to go through each other's sections.

And you know, this book, it's not that, like, she wrote one part and I wrote one part.

And you know, we had our little sections that were completely separate.

We were predominantly responsible for certain aspects of the book.

7:11

And anyone who knows our work will kind of see, like, you know, there's the chapter about the menstrual cycle and, you know, the chapter about using fertility words for conception, right.

So there's certain things that you can say, OK, Lisa predominantly worked on those things, but it was truly a collaborative effort where Lily's genius is all over everything.

7:29

And my you know, I I'm not going to say genius, but my yes, your.

Genius.

Own that.

Well, thank you.

You said it is all over everything as well.

So it really, really is collaborative and it was we're just like I, I, I I don't want to speak for Lily, but I I would say that we are both just absolutely thrilled that we are at the stage where it's ready to share with the world.

7:50

Oh, hey there, Laura here.

Briefly interrupting your listening pleasure to talk protein intake, I've prioritized increased protein over the past few months and in turn have noticed better energy, quicker strength gains, better balanced blood sugar, improved sleep, and faster recovery, all with more energy to take on the demands of life and motherhood.

8:10

And whey is one of the highest quality, most absorbable, and easiest to consume proteins out there.

And Paleo Valley's Whey Plus Colostrum is the best on the market.

I add the chocolate whey to my morning coffee and the vanilla whey to my daily whipped cottage cheese bowls, making it easier than ever to get my protein needs met.

8:27

Plus they taste amazing.

No added junk, easily absorbable, super delicious, and now you can save 15%.

Paleo Valley is offering our modern Mamas community an awesome deal.

Just visit paleovalley.com/modern Mamas to save 15% site wide.

8:46

I promise you these whey proteins are delicious.

They are nourishing and with the added benefit of colostrum.

What's not to love?

Check it out again.

That's Paleo valley.com/modern Mamas MODERNMAMAS.

9:02

Enjoy.

Yes.

Well congratulations and I'm honored to get to share it here.

I'm such a fan of both your works and I just think that it's so important.

And honestly recording with you back in 2018.

You know I had had my daughter and I learned a lot about the importance of fertility but and fertility awareness in this this 5th title sign and all that because I was trying you know we wanted a baby but in the years since and now having had my second and I'm we're like done barring any you know big surprises.

9:30

I I'd love what I've garnered from the work that you've put out because and this whole concept and the shift you've made.

I think like societally in some ways you know to that it's not we don't just want to be fertile to have babies it's it's a sign of our vitality and our health.

And so I just, I think it's important in the world of contraception and fertility and the changes that need to happen there.

9:50

And I think it's important in the, in the realm, in the world of just Women's Health in general and kind of owning our cycles and our periods and our fertility and our vitality in a way that, you know, I don't want my girls to grow up thinking like, oh man, my period's a burden.

It's a gift.

So I just think that that's very cool and I'm grateful for the work that you're doing.

10:08

And so thank you for thank you for doing it.

Well, thank you so much.

That's amazing.

OK, well, let's dive into some of this, some of the good here.

I mean, there's so much, but really, I mean, you kind of touched on this already, but what let's just let's start with like people.

10:25

We've said the word vital sign multiple times, so maybe we can just kind of knock that out right out, right out of the gate here.

So what is a vital sign and why should we consider the mental cycle to be one?

Yeah, let's start there.

For sure.

For sure.

A vital sign simply is something that it's a measure of how our body is functioning.

10:43

And the most common vital signs that we're familiar with include our body temperature, our heart rate, our blood pressure, the number of times that we are breathing per minute.

And those, I mean, if you think about any of those common vital signs, if you were to go to your doctor and your doctor was to measure those things, you know, it not only gives your doctor some general information, you know that you're doing okay or or what have you.

11:07

But if you look at any specific one of those vital signs, let's say if you're blood pressure is too high, it not only tells the Doctor that something's up, but more specifically, it gives your doctor a bit of a road map because your doctor would know that there's certain things that could raise the blood pressure.

So when we're seeing this particular sign being, you know, off, it gives us a kind of a road map of where to go and what to look for for, for what could be wrong.

11:30

And that the menstrual cycle can be used in much the same way, which is really interesting.

It's one of those things where if you've never thought about it that way, as soon as you're, you know, as soon as it's brought to your attention, like, oh, that makes perfect sense.

And so when I talk about the menstrual cycle, often people think period only.

11:47

And the period obviously is a part of the menstrual cycle.

But we can look at the menstrual cycle and it's part.

So we can look at the period, you know, how much you're bleeding, if there's pain, how long it's lasting, you know, all of those kinds of things.

But we can also look at the total length of your menstrual cycle.

12:02

We can look at the first half of your menstrual cycle as you approach tribulation, what that looks like.

We can look at your cervical mucus patterns and see if they're normal.

And, you know, cervical mucus is obviously what you produce as you approach ovulation, and that's what keeps the sperm alive for five days.

And it plays a really crucial role in fertility.

12:19

But I mean, you can also look at it and detect something as straightforward as a yeast infection if your cervical mucus patterns are off.

And then we can also look at the second-half of the cycle after ovulation.

And you know, if you know how long that's supposed to be in what it represents, it's a reflection of your progesterone production, how strong that is.

12:39

You can really gather a lot about your cycle, your hormones and also general health just by paying attention.

So I think that it's really interesting also what you said.

You know, when we first spoke, you were in a season where you were trying to conceive.

So you were looking at this information in a certain way, but it still applies once you're in a separate station.

12:59

So I'm in a similar season.

I just had my first daughter.

So I have two sons and a daughter.

My, my eldest son is 11, my middle son is 8 and my daughter is 17 months and we are done also I think, yeah, my husband is I mean for years he, I would ask him like on the intention scale, you know, we do.

13:18

I do this with my clients like, where are you from zero to 10?

Like zero.

You don't want any babies right now, 10.

You're probably already trying.

For years he was like a two because we have two busy boys and you know and and then during the COVID he surprised me when I asked him and he was like 8 and I was like 8.

13:37

OK, go type.

But yeah.

So now that you know you and I are in a similar season, right past that actively trying to conceive, it's still relevant because as I moved into, I'm not sure exactly your age, but as I move into my 40s, I'm 41 at this point, things it, it really becomes important kind of in a different way to maintain a healthy cycle and hormone balance because it can be more challenging as you approach menopause.

14:03

So kind of going on a little bit, but hopefully that answers the question about the vital sign piece.

Yes, absolutely.

And that's very helpful.

And you know, even though I've kind of, I've been following in like I I understand it on some level, just reiterating it and hearing it again is a good reminder for me because sometimes, you know, it takes me a long time to get my period back, most part of my nurse for pretty extended times and like just stopped night nursing my 2 year old and it just takes a while for me.

14:26

But that doesn't mean what I'm learning more and more is that doesn't mean just because I don't have an actual period like I'm not bleeding, doesn't mean that I don't have still have signs of that sign.

And so just tuning in even more in depth to that, it's just it's so powerful and it just slows us down.

So many of us are just on the go nonstop and when we can remember the importance of our vital signs, to tune into them and listen to them, I just it can be pretty game changing.

14:48

So thank you for that.

And then so it's a vital sign and this is kind of a a bloated question, but what what should we So what should we be looking for?

So what does a normal, healthy menstrual cycle look like?

15:03

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So I just kind of walked through the different steps of the menstrual cycle.

So I'll kind of start at the period.

So I mean in a healthy cycle, I mean to start off with, one of the questions I get is like what do we consider the first day of our period.

So your period starts the first day of your truth flow.

15:22

So if you it's not uncommon for women to have you know maybe some spotting or something like that before their period starts.

But when you have that first day of truth flow, you have to use something to collect your bleeding.

We would start there.

So a healthy period is last somewhere between three to seven days.

15:38

The average is about 5 days or so.

And I always say a period should be like a sentence, It should have a beginning, a middle and an end and then it should be over.

So a healthy period typically starts moderate to heavy and then you'll have the that active leading phase and then it starts to taper off kind of like you're closing a tap.

15:56

And ideally it would then come to, you know, a conclusion and ideally a healthy period you wouldn't have a whole lot of pain.

So some pain.

Obviously what's happening when you're having a period is that you're shedding the functional layer of your endometrium.

16:11

So in that process there is naturally some inflammation and you know some cell death as this lining is shed.

But beyond mild to moderate, I would say even moderate pain we should consider as as a sign of inflammation at least we should really be looking at pain not as just normal even though it's quite upon.

16:31

And obviously we should be looking at it as as a potential sign that there's something more we could do to reduce that inflammation or that something isn't going as optimally as it could go.

In terms of the bleeding itself, the volume, a normal healthy period is somewhere between you know 25 to 80 mils of of bleeding which is somewhere between 1:00 to to three oz.

16:53

And obviously women do bleed more than that or less than that.

So there is a huge range of how much women actually bleed.

But when we're getting over that 80 milliliter mark that that tends to come with some potential challenges from you know deficient iron deficiency or it could be a sign of something like fibroids or something like that.

17:11

So, so I mean that is kind of a a very brief overview of of what a healthy period would look look like.

And I could also mention that although it's really normal to have some clotting if you are noticing a lot of clots or if you're noticing that actually I had a client yesterday and she so in my practice we do all the things.

17:30

So she was actually sharing some pictures, which I welcome.

So because sometimes it helps to explain things and she was showing like bleeding that was like crushed blueberries.

And so although that can happen, that's not optimal and we want to do what we can to see if we can improve that.

So once we move through the period, what's happening at that stage of your cycle is that your ovaries are starting to prepare for ovulation.

17:52

So at that stage of your cycle, your follicles are starting to develop and a group of follicles starts to develop and eventually one is chosen to for ovulation and that one follicle ends up growing and producing lots of estrogen.

And so that's how we can characterize that first half of the cycle, the pre ovulatory phase.

18:10

And so what's normal for that phase is it is normal after the period to have a couple of days that we would call dry days before you start to see your cervical mucus.

So for anybody who was charting or paying attention to their mucus or anything like that, if you were actively trying to conceive or you know, if you know, depending on your your fertility journey, you may have observed that cervical fluid and it can look like clear, raw stretchy egg whites, it can look like creamy white hand lotion.

18:38

So in a normal healthy cycle, we would expect to have cervical fluid for, you know, anywhere from two to seven days.

That's kind of what we'd see on average that would lead up to ovulation.

So in a healthy cycle, ovulation has to happen and the overall length of a normal cycle falls somewhere between 24 and 35 days.

18:58

And in order for you to have a cycle that long, ovulation would have to happen somewhere between cycle days 10 and let's say days 22.

So ovulation has to happen in order for the cycle to be normal.

We would want it to happen kind of promptly in order for the cycle length to be normal.

19:15

And then once you've ovulated, we would expect the cervical fluid to stop to dry up.

And this is related to hormones.

We're predominantly producing estrogen during that pre ovulatory phase and then once we ovulate, we're producing progesterone and progesterone has the effect of raising our body temperature.

19:31

That's where the basal body temperature charting comes in.

If anyone's ever tracked their temperature it it goes up after ovulation and that's the way we can confirm ovulation.

And progesterone also shuts down that cervical fluid production.

So in a typical normal healthy cycle, we would see the cervical mucus kind of stop and we would again call those dry days post ovulation.

19:51

And then when you have a healthy cycle, you're making enough progesterone to have a full second-half of your cycle, what's also referred to as the post ovulatory phase or the luteal phase.

So in a healthy cycle, we would expect that post ovulatory phase to last for anywhere from about 12 to 14 days and that's a sign of you know good progesterone production when we have either a shorter.

20:16

Luteal phase or post ambulatory phase like when it's not that full 12 to 14 days or when you start to see several days of spotting before your period starts or when you start to have more PMS symptoms, more pronounced, kind of more moderate to severe, those can all be signs of low progesterone.

20:36

And so just by going through the the general kind of overview of the cycle, you can see that there's lots of different parts to the cycle.

And so when we kind of get into the weeds by looking at these different aspects of the cycle, when we understand what was would be normal, what the normal range would be for all of these different signs, it should be clear that there's a lot of different pieces of information we can gather about our health, about our fertility.

20:59

And this is that's kind of how we use the menstrual cycle as a vital sign.

So we're using as the 5th vital sign and the sign word there obviously is a sign of our vitality and health.

So what are some we.

We know what to look for when our to now, like what are we looking for with our cycle, with the way that our blood looks, with the way that we're feeling all of that.

21:18

What are the indicators of that sign?

And then what then are the impacts of having a vital sign like having that sign be vital and all those things kind of coming in, coming together.

What can we expect as women and the other components of our life?

How are we going to feel?

21:34

How is that going to play out from a healthy, vital sign to like a healthy human in life?

Oh, that's such a great question.

Yeah.

I would say the way that I look at the cycle is a reflection of what's going on.

So we don't have a little secretary inside that can be like okay, you just turns a little out today.

21:51

And so the way that I've interacted with my cycle over the past couple of decades and the way that I've taught my clients and and practitioners now is that, you know, when we get to the stage where we are charting and we understand what's going on and we can kind of see what happens is it's like we're in a bit of a dance with our cycles.

22:12

And so if I give an example, so 2023, so last year was for myself, there was lots of things going on.

There was just so many things.

There was book, but I just had baby.

I had a sick parent, like there was just a lot of things going on.

And so I did have a cycle, 2 cycles actually, that were kind of really uncharacteristic.

22:31

So I've been in this conversation for years and I have my cycles have normalized quite a bit.

When I first started training my 20s, my cycles were long and it wouldn't weren't necessarily the regular per SE, but they were on the longer end and et cetera.

So over the years I was able to normalize and things like that.

22:49

But during times of stress, I was traveling a lot.

I was there was a couple weeks where I was traveling in the place I was at.

The food was very different to what I was normally eating, super low protein, more on the vegetarian side, actually, of the options that I had to eat.

23:04

And that's just not typical for me.

And so the between the travel, the stress and the dietary changes, I had one cycle that was quite long.

It was something like 46 days or something like that.

And then during a different period of stress, for the first time in my charting history, I had several days of spotting before my period, which again isn't uncommon.

23:23

But for me it wasn't very typical.

So your question of like how would you feel if everything's working out, it's it's always this reflection back and forth.

In my case, when my cycles were off, it reflected that all of the stress and the the the travel and the this and the that and whatever.

23:40

And then once my cycle was like once I saw that because for me when I talk about it, it's a vital sign as a personal vital sign for your own self.

I have and I try to teach my clients to take that as information so I don't look at it as like, Oh, my body's broken now, you know, I look at it like, OK, my body is telling me like this is enough.

24:01

Like you need to get back on track.

And so during those times of stress, when I could see what was happening in my cycle, it was a sign for me to get back on my routine, make sure that I'm back on my sleep routine.

Make sure that I'm prioritizing my diet, getting enough protein, making sure that I'm, you know, I, I take certain supplements to support stress from production or whatever it is just to get back on my routine.

24:25

So you know to long story long when your menstrual cycle is healthy, when your vital sign is in line, you would expect to feel great.

You would expect to have good energy.

You would expect to not have a whole bunch of cycle complaints.

24:40

I'm not ever aiming for perfection.

That's not what we're trying to do.

What even when you're trying to your cycle in a really detailed way.

But you you would expect to have, you know, minimal complaints with regards to your period.

If you have that under control you you may have some discomfort, you may have a few things going on, but you would expect to for it to be completely manageable and for it not to really be an issue.

25:06

You wouldn't expect to have overly heavy periods, You wouldn't expect to have overly painful periods.

You wouldn't expect to have irregular period like, right?

You would expect to have a relatively manageable situation there.

You wouldn't expect to have a cycle that varies a ton.

25:22

So a normal menstrual cycle doesn't vary more than eight days from cycle to cycle.

So it's not always going to be exactly 28 days or anything, but you would expect it to be relatively stable.

You wouldn't expect to have like outraging PMS.

Sometimes you wouldn't expect to have abnormal bleeding where you just you're bleeding in the middle of the cycle and you just never know what's going on.

25:45

So in terms of the cycle complaints when your menstrual, when your your vital sign is on point, you would expect that to kind of be going evenly even keel.

But in terms of how you would feel in terms of your vitality, you would expect to have energy, you know you wake up with energy, you would expect to sleep well, right.

26:02

Like your overall, when your cycle is healthy, it is reflecting back to you that your body is functioning optimally.

Hi friends, Laura and Jess here to chat with you about our favorite new oral care products by Wellness, a phenomenal company that we are so proud to be partnering with.

Wellness AB Corporation was Co founded by Katie Wells of Wellness Mama after years of struggling to find safer and non-toxic products for her family.

26:25

Wellness has quite a product line up, but today we want to chat about their oral care products.

All Fluoride free Floyd has been extensively researched and linked to potential negative side effects like hormone disruptors, acne, oral microbiome dysregulation, blood pressure issues and more.

26:41

And did you know that every toothpaste with fluoride sold in the US is required to have a poison warning on the tube?

Yikes.

Whoa, not cool.

You know it is cool though.

Wellness is not only fluoride free, but they also use a substance called micro hydroxyapatite.

26:57

It's a big word in in their products that is an all natural substance that can replace fluoride and works to strengthen your teeth naturally and safely.

Baron Kami are loving the Strawberry Kids toothpaste and Tim and I cannot believe how effective the whitening toothpaste has been in such a short amount of time.

27:13

I need to see some before and after.

I'll take some.

If you want to check out their offerings, everything from toothpaste to deodorant to shampoo and more, we've got you covered.

Wellness is offering our listeners a special 15% off discount that will be automatically applied when you shop through our unique link at www.wellnesswellnesse.com/discount/modern Mama.

27:40

We hope you love their products just as much as we do and so like mood throughout the month better libido, I mean that's I think that's on a lot of our listeners minds.

I'm sure that would impact that desire.

Absolutely.

I mean when you have your cycle as optimal, your hormones are balanced and and flowing, you would expect to have, you know just the right amount of estrogen.

28:04

So you wouldn't expect to have like way too much and for it to be causing problems.

You wouldn't expect for your liver to be having trouble processing and breaking it down.

So you end up with, you know, estrogen sticking around and causing problems, right.

You would expect to have the right amount of estrogen, not too little, not too much.

28:21

A good.

Your body is functioning well.

So you're flushing out any excess estrogen, you're breaking them down through the appropriate pathways so that it's not causing problematic metabolites that are coming around to to give you, you know, terrible symptoms.

You wouldn't expect to have weird stuff happen mid cycle, like histamine reactions that are related to your period and things like that.

28:41

So absolutely you would expect to have a healthy libido because when you're having your natural estrogen, testosterone, progesterone through the, you know, through the cycle unimpeded then absolutely.

28:57

And you know, one of the things I talk about a lot is that the hormonal birth control pill and some of the effects.

And I think that's just an interesting parallel to to talk about libido because you know, when you're on the pill, it shuts down that ovarian hormone production.

So you're not making your natural estrogen, progesterone, testosterone in sufficient amounts, and the pill profoundly lowers testosterone.

29:17

So when you are cycling normally, when your ovaries are pumping out just the right amount of hormones, you've got good testosterone.

It's not too high, right?

It's not causing all these problems, but it's there was just the right amount.

Yes, absolutely.

You expect to have good libido and good energy and all those things.

29:36

Love it.

Because just like you don't just want a healthy menstrual cycle when you're in fertility, when you're going to have a baby, you also.

I know personally, I don't just have sex to have a few.

So it's nice to have all of that inner, inner, mixed together.

Very cool.

OK, so we've talked now about the 5th battle sign and what we're looking for and how it can impact our lives, you know, even sans trying to conceive, because I know we're both in that space, so it is relevant to us.

29:59

But then I know we also have a lot of listeners who maybe are in the process of trying to conceive or are considering their preconception state.

And I mean I've I haven't had a chance to read the entire book but I did have a chance to get in there and like look through it and scam and read some of it And I love the way that it all comes together really on just like I love the name first of all real food Lily obviously from real food for pregnancy.

30:20

Then we have the fertility component from you.

So I want to touch now a little bit more on the fertility component and now we are let's we're shifting gears here.

Yes.

Fertility vitality important in all seasons of life but also a lot of y'all listening are are seeking this next step of preconception.

30:37

And so kind of from early on now we're we're looking at I think 1 misconception that is out there and you probably with your practice.

I've seen this a ton where people are like, OK I'm ready.

I want to get pregnant tomorrow let's start.

And so if we were going to go kind of cyclically in here there's never it's never too late to start to dive into this But let's say you're like, OK, 2025, I want to have a baby.

30:58

So I don't even think about it right now, accurate or not.

Well, of course, ideally I would say no.

I would say we planned for so many things.

One of the things I realized just by going through the interesting processes of life is that we do plan for our weddings and baby showers.

31:17

These are things that we're often planning 612 even more months ahead of time.

But I think because of the way our culture looks at pregnancy, I think that a lot of it is that we spend a lot of our early years actively avoiding pregnancy.

And in that mindset, we are taking it as a given for granted that it's gonna happen.

31:36

And even like, it's a domestic terrorist that we're actively trying to prevent, right.

And so with that mindset, I think does come a little bit of we're taking this for granted and assuming it's just going to happen like it's a definite like, Oh my gosh, I need to and I am not like we, we do need to act actively have contraceptive options.

31:54

So by noting, am I saying that that's not true to some extent.

But what is left out of that conversation is how our fertility changes with age and how you know when we are ready to conceive.

It's if we think about what we truly want, it's not just to get pregnant.

32:12

We want to have a healthy baby.

We want to have a healthy pregnancy.

We want, when that baby arrives, for us to have the energy and vitality to take care of the baby.

And often we're waiting for that right time to start our families.

And then it's not just one baby we want.

Often we have one baby and we quickly want to have a second baby.

32:32

So with all of these things in mind, if you are thinking okay 2025 is the year my partner and I are going to start trying for baby then absolutely we recommend have struggling in the book to think about that preconception time frame.

32:47

That's essentially why we wrote the book.

We want to create that runway so that you have specific evidence based tools, strategies, nutritional plans, fertility awareness, charting information so that you can really set yourself up for success and not again just to get pregnant, which we want for you when you're ready.

33:08

We also want you to have a healthy baby.

We want you to have a healthy pregnancy and we want you to be able to set yourself up for that next baby.

Because as you know, so many, we wait and wait and wait until everything is right, until the stars aligned, until we have the partner, we have the job, we have, whatever we need to have in order for to feel comfortable to have a child.

33:29

But then it's often like bang, bang, bang.

We wanna have not everybody, but I think you know what I mean, right?

And if we're not set up and we're not nutritionally prepared, it can be difficult.

Parenting is difficult in the best of times.

You have a 2 year old.

I have a 17 month old.

33:44

There's often years where sleep isn't optimal, where your nutrition might not be the greatest if you're prioritizing your children and you're eating their scraps.

I know I used to say like half of my diet comes from their scraps, right?

And so if you set yourself up nutritionally prior to pregnancy, if you have that knowledge and information, if you understand how important the menstrual cycle is and that it's a reflection of your health and fertility, and you give yourself a bit of space.

34:15

So not only the preconception nutrition piece, which is crucial, but we also talk a little bit about making a choice, choosing what birth control options you're gonna use in that year before pregnancy.

So I strongly recommend that we start reconsidering our use of hormonal birth control a minimum of 6 to 12 months prior to what we're starting to conceive.

34:35

So I actively encourage women to think about, OK, so if you know that you want a baby in this time frame, you know, can we start thinking about a non hormonal option so that you can give your cycles a chance to rest, a chance to recover.

But more importantly so that if a lot of women were put on the pill for cycle problems.

34:56

So if you were put on the pill for like you know, a regular cycle or you didn't have cycles or you had super, super painful periods that were completely unmanageable, that would put you into a category where it's it's more possible that if you come off the pill you might have a delay and ovulation to getting your fertility back at things.

35:16

And so just having that mindset of, OK, maybe I should come off a little bit earlier, let me see what's happening in my cycles.

Let me have a backup non hormonal birth control plan for a period of time so my cycles can normalize and things like that so that I can prepare for the season where I want to have babies.

35:34

That is.

I mean when I say it, it's sound advice, but it's not always something that we're taught told.

It's not something that we're we're always considering to do.

I love it.

OK, awesome.

And you talked about partner.

So before I want to dive more into female and the the mom and nutrition and fertility and all that.

35:53

But also dad matters, I imagine from everything from lifestyle, which I guess includes nutrition and and I think so much of it falls on our shoulders when something is things aren't happening as quickly as we want or or whatnot.

But before we dive more into Fifth Battle sign and periods and mental cycles and fertility for us, can you just touch on on the guy just in case someone's like, I'm doing everything right.

36:15

It's not happening.

There is another whole partner involved.

Absolutely.

And I'm so glad you brought that up.

And when I am working with clients and practitioners before I even talk about egg quality, I jump in and kind of put the men on blast and talk about sperm quality because you're absolutely right.

36:33

The, the burden of fertility conception, you know, preparation tends to fall on us and it's because we have the visible evidence of conception.

We're the ones that carry the babies, we're the ones that birth the babies, we're the ones that breastfeed the babies.

36:49

So obviously it's completely up to us, right?

But it is wild when you look at the research around fertility.

And so I think that a couple of stats are really useful here.

You know, male infertility, male factor infertility is responsible solely for 20 to 30% of infertility cases and it is a contributing factor 50% of the time.

37:13

So half of the time that a couple is struggling with fertility issues.

It it's not to say it's always like we're not saying his faults right, but we're saying that his the male factor is a contributing factor.

And even if I say that, I think many of us might still like I've worked with women for decades and and we still really think it's us.

37:33

And so I think that what what's also really interesting is when I was looking at the research, there's all, you know, there's different ways to look at all the things.

So there's different studies and there's different ways that they kind of look at information.

But one of the interesting ways that they look at information is if you take a group of couples who have been trying to conceive for one year or more without success, or two years or more without success.

37:57

If you look at the semen parameters of the men in those groups of of couples who've been trying without success, and you compare it to the men in the the the groups of couples who were able to successfully conceive within one year, let's say, you will always find that the average parameters of those men are quite a bit lower.

38:18

So from a statistical standpoint, if you have been trying to conceive for a year or more or two years or more, for example, without success statistically, it's just not as likely that his sperm is perfect.

And this is what I found.

38:35

So it doesn't mean all parameters are totally off and you know, but I that's a a really important piece.

So after working with couples in in this way for a long time, when you have a couple who's been trying to succeed on on trying to conceive unsuccessfully for quite some time, when his sperm is analyzed and this is something that's really important as well, is even if you were told he was fine, fine is my least favorite word.

39:04

I want to like go to war with the word fine because everyone's fine.

Oh he's fine, he's fine, he's fine.

But what I found systematically across the board is that I still to the day have not had one client whose doctor did a semen analysis and sat down with them and went through all of the main parameters.

39:24

I explained what they meant and told them just provided them with that information.

So when I'm if I just give an example, let's say I have a couple who or I always, I work with the woman, but have a couple they're trying to conceive for.

39:41

You know, two years hasn't been happening.

She's coming to me.

She wants to know what's wrong with her, what's wrong with her cycle.

So we're diving into her cycle in in a ton of detail.

We're charting.

We're looking at all the factors that I shared with you.

We're gathering what we can, what we can about her hormonal health and things like that.

39:57

We're looking at, you know, the factors.

But of course I'm putting the man on blast, like I said, because there's no man alive that's so healthy that he can't even benefit from a multivitamin.

So you know if he's open to having his semen analyzed and we're looking at it.

I often hear yeah we were told he was fine and I say OK great, can I see can I see the semen analysis And then we look at it together and we look at the factors, we look at the motility.

40:23

So they have a number of the percentage of sperm that are motel.

And it's really this whole semen analysis stuff is really interesting because there's a percentage of sperm that are motel, meaning they move at all and then there's the percentage of sperm that are have forward progression so that actually swim forward.

40:38

And I find that even to be interesting because that means some of them are kind of just twitching, hanging out and then others are moving forward, right.

Percentage vitality that means how many are alive.

And to me that that kind of stopped me in my tracks when I'm looking at that because it means there's a percentage of the the semen in the in the ejaculate that are literally dead.

40:58

We have the morphology which is you know when they look at the sperm like do they appear normal because there is a normal shape and and in the book I did a representation of some of those images of abnormal sperm and the morph.

The morphology number is really interesting because what is considered normal from the World Health Organization and then I'm kind of I'll just we have the motility morphology and then we have the sperm count and they're usually looking at the concentration.

41:27

So what's considered normal through the World Health Organization is 4% morphology, 40% motility.

And for sperm numbers, you know, they're looking at 15,000,000 sperm per milliliter, which is considered normal.

41:44

So this is a whole thing that I could go on for about, you know, half an hour.

So I'll keep it brief.

But one of the things that I often share with my clients is that, you know, because that morphology number is 4%, what that means is that if you had 100 sperm, four of them would appear, you know, visually normal, you know, have like a normal roundhead and a tail, like what we think of as a sperm.

42:07

And 96% of them would look really weird.

And so when I'm actually with clients, I have, there's the 2010 World Health Organization document where all this information comes from.

I actually show them from that document images where they, they actually dyed the sperm and took pictures of them with the microscope and they put them in there to show the difference between normal and abnormal sperm.

42:27

And I show them the picture and I'm like 96% of them look like this and that stops them in their tracks because all of a sudden we're seeing what these numbers really mean.

So what's interesting about human males is that when even when you're reading the studies, you know, the, the, the, the researchers will say, like compared to other animals, you know, human men for whatever reason do have kind of poor parameters because a lot of animals in the animal Kingdom don't have sperm parameters that low.

42:55

So the healthiest man alive tends to to not have more than like a 50% morphology kind of thing.

But when you really start to think of what that means we and and in terms of the concentration, so 15,000,000 sperm per milliliter, it might actually sound like a big number.

But in let's say the 40s, so you know many years ago the average man had you know like 100 million sperm per milliliter and you can just see that by looking at old studies.

43:22

So we have a lot of things happening here with the male factor and not, although it's not necessarily at this is your partner's fault situation.

We do have a general trend in men that's going down.

So there's all of these population studies where they're looking at semen parameters over decades and since the 40s, we've seen a very clear decline.

43:44

And so the average man, like I said in the 40s had over 100 million sperm per milliliter.

And today the average man has somewhere around 50 million sperm per milliliter.

So we're seeing a drop in the number of sperm.

We're seeing a drop in the quality of sperm.

And I think the biggest take away from what I'm saying here for anyone who's trying to conceive is that, you know, there's there's a couple things.

44:06

One, if you've been trying for a while, if statistically there, it's likely that at least one of those parameters on his end are off.

And the longer you wait to do the semen analysis, the longer it takes to kind of start rectifying that.

It takes about 3 months for men to make sperm.

44:23

So if your partner is ejaculating today, count back three months and think to yourself, OK, so whatever he's, you know, spitting out today is a reflection of what he was doing three months ago.

So if you're wanting to change that, what I've observed is that you want to start right now and the results of whatever changes that you make, you're going to start to see in the next three to six months or more.

44:46

Because it's not this, if you're going for the natural route, improving your nutrition, you know, targeted supplementation to support, you know, improvement in his sperm numbers and and quality and things, it's not something that happens magically at a snap of your fingers.

It does take several months in order for you to start to see the benefits of that.

45:03

So for like I said, I can talk about the sperm part for like hours.

But I hope the take away I want you to take is that this is a real issue and it's beyond just your partner.

Because as I said, there's a whole situation where overall the overall sperm numbers and quality have been declining for a while.

45:22

So this is a bigger issue, I think, that most people consider.

And the reason that I ended up down the rabbit hole is because I teach women to chart their cycles.

And I've been charting my cycles for years.

And when I was in my early 20s, you know, I used fertility where it says birth control.

And so I was actively, you know, avoiding pregnancy and terrified, like, you know, stay over there, right?

45:44

Like, I don't want you to even be anywhere near me because of course I don't want to have unprotected sex in the window because I'm going to get pregnant.

So you can imagine my surprise when I started working with couples and women who are trying to conceive and they're having sex at the right time, cycle after cycle after cycle.

46:01

They're having unprotected sex in the window over and over and over again, and nothing's happening.

So I had to ask myself, well, what is, what is the deal?

Because I was terrified for my entire, you know, 20s when I was not trying to conceive of pregnancy.

And I did everything to avoid exposure at all, you know and here you are having.

46:21

So hard, yeah.

And nothing's happening.

So I had to start asking like, what is going on here?

And it turns out that, you know, male factor is huge as a part of this conversation.

Hello friends, it's Jess here.

I need to talk to you about something that's so near and dear to my heart, Nutrition for Mamas and women in their childbearing years.

46:41

When I was deep in my conception and preconception planning years, one of the hardest things to navigate was finding high quality vitamins and supplements to support a healthy pregnancy and postpartum experience.

There is so much misinformation and false claims out there and it makes it so hard to know who to trust with your health.

46:59

Which is why I am just over the moon happy to be partnering with Needed, a company not only providing radically better nutrition products, but also advocating for better maternal and infant health outcomes through their dedicated research and clinical study.

And we're thrilled to be able to offer you 20% off your first month by visiting thisisneeded.com and using the code Modern Mamas at checkout.

47:22

The amazing thing is that not only is needed a one stop shop for all your prenatal vitamin needs, they also have complete plans for your 4th trimester needs and beyond.

I just turned 40 this year and I'm so excited to be using their Women's Health Plan which includes A multivitamin, Omega-3 plus and stress support which helps maintain optimal hormonal balance, thyroid and metabolic health, a healthy stress response, focus and mood support, a healthy immune response and contributes to your overall energy, beauty and vitality.

47:52

OK, I don't know about you, but with the 2023 I had, this is all much needed.

Why don't we all start 2024 with the ultimate goal of nurturing ourselves the best we can?

And one easy way to do this is by being consistent with high quality supplementation.

You can check out needed and get 20% off your first month by visiting thisisneeded.com and using the code Modern Mamas at checkout.

48:14

Let's make this the Year of you friend with radically better.

Nutrition they you got to have some onus on that, guys.

I love it.

OK.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Seriously.

OK well now I just want to I want to make sure that we take some time to talk about the newest book because it's absolutely brilliant.

48:30

I just.

I'm in awe and the way that it all comes together because there's a lot of, you know, we and the last episode we talked a lot about.

So if you if you haven't already, go back and listen to episode 86.

We talk more about like cycle tracking and using the skipping the hormonal birth control in favor of potentially using more of like cycle tracking and that kind of thing.

48:50

Like you were just talking about finding your window having sex then or not, you know whatever it is or whatever your method is for protection during those peak times.

But now I want to dive a little bit more into the nutrition component and other things we can do besides, you know, hormones or meds or that kind of thing when it just comes to like basic nutrition.

49:11

And I preface this with go get the book.

There's so much nuance to this, but just kind of like an overarching, as we round off the episode, an overarching idea of what does this book dive into, who is it for, how can it help, and how does nutrition play in?

Such a great question.

49:28

So in many ways this book feels like 2 books in one book because the first several chapters of the book are truly lilies nutritional genius.

We go through in extensive detail, you know, why preconception nutrient stores matter, how having a specific period of time where we're focused on preconception nutrition is really setting the stage or a healthy pregnancy.

49:54

We talk about specific foods that support fertility and it's not this fluffy thing where we're just saying like eat this and eat that and take this supplement because we're really going into the research behind it.

So looking deeper at, you know, why, you know, we should be incorporating specific foods, why we should be, you know, and we talk about ancestral nutrition.

50:18

We talk about, you know some of the foods include eggs and liver and organ meats.

Anyone who who knows me knows I'm always talking about liver because it's like nature's multivitamin, you know the importance of fish and seafood and and then we get into the different nutritional components.

We talk about macro nutrient ratios, balancing blood sugar, the importance of getting sufficient protein.

50:38

So it really, if you're looking for that evidence based specific plan for how we can optimize our nutrition going into pregnancy during those preconception phases, that is really a huge, huge part of the book.

There's I'm.

50:55

I'm trying to kind of sum it up because there's a whole lot that we talk about.

As you know, we talk about what foods are optimal for fertility, what foods are not so great for fertility like things to stay away from.

And then we get into the the practical aspect of conception and how the menstrual cycle fits into it.

51:14

So we talk about what a healthy menstrual cycle looks like, how the nutrition plays a role in supporting hormone health.

We talk about strategies for conception.

So we go into the specifics of, you know, timing sex correctly, how much sex you should be having, Like should you?

51:32

Do you need to have sex with five times a day or do you?

You know what I mean?

So we talked about how to use that fertility awareness component to the Max to really optimize your chances of conception.

We get into egg and sperm qualities.

Those are two huge chapters that we go into a ton of research in detail.

51:50

We talk about some of the common fertility testing and how it plays into it over in reserve testing, so we really get into just the weeds on those details.

We also get into some of the most common menstrual cycle complaints.

So we have a chapter on polycystic ovary syndrome with an extensive nutritional section.

52:10

Obviously Lily jumped in and shared what we can do nutritional strategies to really minimize the negative effects of PCOS and and we we get into that quite a bit and also the nuances of timing concept like timing for conception when your cycles are not quote you know regular.

52:28

So we get into that a lot.

We get into hypothalamic amenorrhea and the road to recovery from HA.

So if you're, you know, not having a period at all, we talk about how to bring it back and we get into a number of other common menstrual cycle issues from thyroid issues to gut health to endometriosis, fibroids or current miscarriage like if there's there's there's a ton.

52:48

We also talk about toxins and this whole concept of, you know, prior to pregnancy thinking about what we might have been exposed to, what we might have on board and looking to kind of cleanse that and improve our fertility that way.

53:03

So it's really extensive, it's comprehensive, it's approachable and it's intended for someone at any point in their fertility journey who's really looking at optimizing their their cycle.

I love it.

I am.

I have my copy, but I want to buy.

53:20

I have it, you know, virtually.

But I cannot wait to get my hands on it, open it up and take in the this combo of wisdom that I just.

I feel like the world needed you two to partner up.

And I'm so grateful that you did.

And I can't wait to, like I said, get my hands on it, Share with the world.

53:35

When is the official release date?

So we're releasing the book on Valentine's Day, which is really exciting.

And that's the perfect timing.

Yeah, that was that was Lily's idea.

I'm like, I I think that, yeah, that was all Lily and I was like, that's a great idea, but I probably would have just like, just release it when it's done.

53:54

Yeah, today.

Yeah, no, I think Valentine's Day is the the perfect day to to release it.

And so for anyone who's listening, you can find more details about the book at Real Food for fertility.com.

It'll be available on Amazon and to be announced if there's other locations where you can find a book as well.

54:13

And cuz I know Lily has a shop on her website for real food for pregnancy, so we may be looking at some options in the future.

But you can get the first chapter for free if you go to realfoodforfertility.com and and for anyone you know, one of the things that I've been working on as well is in my practice.

54:32

When I first started, I was always training women to chart their cycles on an individual basis.

As time progressed, I just kept getting questions from Women's Health practitioners.

You know, I want to teach my clients this as well.

So.

So just as a side note for any Women's Health practitioners who are listening, I've created a really interesting resource for them as well.

54:50

But I wanted to share.

I created an ebook called How to Interpret Virtually Any Chart That Your Client Throws at You.

And so for anyone who's really wanting to go into the weeds of how to bring this knowledge to their clients, you can head over to fertilityfriday.com/chart for more details on how to do that.

55:06

Cool.

I'll add that to the show notes as well.

Awesome.

Any, like, final words.

If you were to leave us with a final word of wisdom or just to take away to leave us with the tinglies as we sign off here, what?

What's just that one little thing?

55:22

It could be simple.

I feel like that was kind of a loaded question to round out, but.

Well, absolutely.

I would just say that wherever you are on your fertility journey, know that there's always things that you can do to improve and to optimize.

There's always more to learn.

You know, one of the hopes that that we have with the work that we do is to empower women so that we can, I suppose you can look at it like I have car insurance, but I don't expect to have an accident.

55:50

So we don't expect to have fertility challenges.

And when we are able to follow a wonderful preconception strategy, when we're able to understand the importance of having a healthy menstrual cycle and really work towards that aim, then we are lessening our chance of needing to have to, you know, use those medical interventions that maybe we were not wanting to do right off the bat.

56:13

So I think I don't know how profound that is, but that's certainly a really important piece of of the message I want to share.

I love it so much.

Thank you, Thank you for your time.

Thank you for your wisdom.

Thank you for doing the work that you do and making a difference.

I really appreciate it and I hope that this year is wonderful.

56:28

You're off to a solid start as as you all listening.

The book is live and ready.

So go get it, read it, share it, gift it.

It's the one.

So thank you so much again for your time and happy Happy New Year.

Thank you so much for having me.

This is of.

Course, our my pleasure, Our pleasure.

56:43

Thanks everyone for listening and we will talk to you next week.

I.

Don't know what?

To say thanks for listening to our podcast.

See you next time.

Thanks for listening to our podcast.

See you next time.

Bye